Post by Dark Emperor on Jul 29, 2014 20:13:36 GMT -5
Hello Wrestling Forum. I am The Dark Warlords first time poster wrestling fan for 33 years. I came across this forum because i was Googling recent criticisms of Paige because i saw something that there was a rumor that Paige was disliked by Vince McMahon. This was about 2 or 3 weeks ago. Found this thread, and began to read the comments. Some negative while others were positive. So i figured now, i will chime in, and give my take on the situation trying to utilize my 33 years of fan viewership of all promotions, reading articles and forums such as this, and other wrestling means to give my view on this situation. Hopefully i will not be long winded about this, but i must structure this in a way that it gets my points across. So lets begin.
It seems as if through my study of this thread that this thread, that it comes down to what i believe are the 4 main points of order. The points are:
1. Booking and Persona Presentation
2. Mic Skills
3. Wrestling Style Translation And Who Is Better
4. Who should go over at Summerslam if the match is made official
I will only stick with two topics to this hopefully will not be long. I will stick with topic numbers 3 and 4
Wrestling Style Translation and Who is better:
I bet you are all wondering why did i would choose this as a discussion point. Well i will tell you. Seeing all the posts here i felt that i needed to give my take on it. I feel that everyone wants to give their take on how is better. Is it Paige or A.J.? Well that is a fair question to ask, i am not going to give the typical answers in the way you all how presented them. I am going to give my interpretation of it through the scope of a long time fan that has watched all the promotions that he can get his hands on. I am going to take this from being a WWE question, and turn it into a more of an OVERALL WRESTLING question. I feel that a true way of answering this question is to think of which ones wrestling style can translate better and easier into differing wrestling markets. What i am saying is whose style can get over among more diverse crowds. So lets look at the styles that are prevalent in wrestling: American Ground And Pound, Canadian, European World Of Sport and Catch Wrestling, Japanese Puroresu, and Latin American Lucha Libre.
European World Of Sport and Catch Wrestling:
This style of wrestling favors more of a technical delivery and mat based grappling. it focuses on hold for hold, counter hold for counter hold type of wrestling. It is also a very snug style that i have seen. It also has a great showcasing of awesome chain wrestling. One in particular that i have enjoyed is the showcase of chain wrestling from The Legend Johnny Saint. Now watching both Paige and A.J., while they are both good wrestlers, Paige's style in the ring i feel can translate better to a market. It focuses on being more mat based than A.J.'s. It can be used to chain moves together, and technical applications are far more shown in what Paige can deliver. So, as far as i am concerned European Scene goes to:
Paige
Canadian Wrestling Scene:
Now even though i am from The United States, i have heard some stuff on The Canadian Scene. I have heard that it can be very rough and rugged up there from our neighbors to the north. I have heard that it can be just as brutal as the old school Tennessee and Texas wrestling scenes. But it also has some bases in That European Scene as well. Well, if i had to make a pick on who would come out on top in a brawling type of environment it would be:
Paige
Latin American Lucha Libre:
This is where it does have some technical wrestling in it, it mainly is about acrobatics and high flying action. Fast paced action causing mind blowing stunts, five star rated aerial moves, colorful characters, and things based on style points. Not going to lie. I think that a true bruiser would make it, but would be very hard to do so. So, i would have to give this one to:
A.J. Lee
Japanese Puroresu:
This is my favorite of the international styles. Hard hitting, mat based attack. Killer shoot submissions. Powerful striking with punishing moves used in the ring. even though it does have some Lucha influence on it, i think that it favors more of the strong stylers obviously. It favors more of the people that enjoy inflicting pain and punishment upon their opponents. It favors more of the wrestler that wants to make this a fight and showcase that Fighting Spirit that Puro wrestling stands for. I think that there is only one person's style that is geared more towards a fighting type of match. A match that will test the will of a wrestler because you will have to fight for your life in the ring when it comes to Puro. I think that the person whose style can work better in a fight situation based on overall and total body of work at this stage of there career is:
Paige
Plus Paige's style resembles more of the greatest Joshi wrestler of all time: Akira Hokuto in my mind at least.
American Ground and Pound:
Now this is going to be the tough one. This is where i had to put the thinking cap on. You see, our style has evolved over the years. Our style shows a real variety of stuff in it. Mat based action, hard hits, innovative moves, showmanship, Broadway style, roughhouse fights, you name it, American has shown it. So to go about this i had to just bottom line it. I had to think that despite our wrestling evolution, what is the base of what we are all about as far as American Wrestling goes. As i thought about it, i could only compare it to the American people in general. Despite our diversity, we all have one thing in common. We are a hard working, nose to the grindstone type of people. We labor all day to provide food for our families, keep expenses in check in order to have sustainable living conditions for you family, and try to instill those values to our children so they can do the same. We are basically blue collar, hard hat wearers that enjoy the simplest things in life. So going on that, i believe that is how the basis of American Wrestling is. Blue collar, nose to the grindstone, hard hat type of style. It is not meant to be pretty. It is meant to get results. It is the type of style that make you come home with dirt under your finger nails. It is rough and rugged, merciless, and vicious. No remorse or sympathy for you. You have to "Man up" in order to survive. Well, between these two, who's style is rough and rugged more? Nose to the grindstone more? Hard hat old school style more? Well to me there is only one.
PAIGE
In my mind, her style is just tailor made to translate better to more markets than A.J.'s because it is very old school and straight laced. No Frills or thrills, appreciates style, but Desires and appreciates SUBSTANCE EVEN MORE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Maybe i am a bit biased because i am from Tennessee, and i am used to watching and liking that gritty and grimey, technical and hard hitting, Southern style wrestling. The style that is OLD SCHOOL TO THE CORE. But i have always said that OLD SCHOOL IS BEST SCHOOL, and Paige's style is straight up OLD SCHOOL.
Who should go over at Summerslam when the match is made official:
I have read all of you debate this topic over and over again. This is a topic that i have found to be very interesting and fun to read. I have read Paige needs to win so her heel turn is validated. Some say A.J. needs to win because of her status. You all say that they both need victories at Summerslam because of the contenders for the title. I am a fun on both ladies, Paige more than A.J., but i can see both sides of this debate. But i am going to take a different course of action of this one. I feel that both the roles of Paige and A.J. have been cemented. I believe that everyone knows that A.J. is the face of the division while Paige is of course the future of the division. Those roles are pretty much set in stone. I believe that they are set in what they are supposed to be. So the question is not whether they need the title to cement themselves on the division, but rather what victory validates the cementation. If the roles are cemented, then whose's needs validation more? Well in my mind, i think that Paige needs her role as the future of the division validated more. And i will tell you why.
From the 80s to i believe the mid 90s, wrestling has always lived by the philosophy that the man had to hold the gold. The top dog always carried the strap. That is a philosophy that should be carried on to this very day. But by the time the mid 90s rolled around, a certain paradigm shift happened in Professional Wrestling. Things started to change that began the practice of going against tradition and tried and true Pro Wrestling convention. I really can not pin down exactly what caused it. Maybe The Monday Night Wars, Rise Of ECW, combination of the two, or something else. But something changed how the business went about things, and one of the things that changed was the doctrine of who the man was. Older convention stated that the champ was the man, but after the change, it became who could be the face of the company being the man. Maybe seeing Hulk Hogan come into WCW being treated as the man straight out of the gate without being the champion showed an example of the shift in wrestling. Maybe it was The NWO that showcased the shift in focus being of the person or group instead of the championship. Maybe the popularity of Rob Van Dam in the original ECW also played its role in the shift. Whatever it was, the shift changed the focus of the wrestling business, and the title was no longer the main focus.
Now, do not get me wrong. The Title of World Champion is still hallowed, respected, and highly important. But now the focus is more on the wrestler as Main Eventer rather than World Champion. I know it sounds convoluted and funny, but now you can have the face of the company AND the champion of the company being two different people. With that being said, A.J. DOES NOT NEED TO BE THE CHAMPION TO BE THE FACE OF THE DIVISION. You can have two pillars of the division holding it up until some more people can step up and bring it. You can have one pillar as the face of the division while the other is being its champion. So that is my take on everything. Paige needs this more than A.J. because A.J. will always be the face of the division whether she holds the gold or not. Will tackle the other two another day. Good night.
It seems as if through my study of this thread that this thread, that it comes down to what i believe are the 4 main points of order. The points are:
1. Booking and Persona Presentation
2. Mic Skills
3. Wrestling Style Translation And Who Is Better
4. Who should go over at Summerslam if the match is made official
I will only stick with two topics to this hopefully will not be long. I will stick with topic numbers 3 and 4
Wrestling Style Translation and Who is better:
I bet you are all wondering why did i would choose this as a discussion point. Well i will tell you. Seeing all the posts here i felt that i needed to give my take on it. I feel that everyone wants to give their take on how is better. Is it Paige or A.J.? Well that is a fair question to ask, i am not going to give the typical answers in the way you all how presented them. I am going to give my interpretation of it through the scope of a long time fan that has watched all the promotions that he can get his hands on. I am going to take this from being a WWE question, and turn it into a more of an OVERALL WRESTLING question. I feel that a true way of answering this question is to think of which ones wrestling style can translate better and easier into differing wrestling markets. What i am saying is whose style can get over among more diverse crowds. So lets look at the styles that are prevalent in wrestling: American Ground And Pound, Canadian, European World Of Sport and Catch Wrestling, Japanese Puroresu, and Latin American Lucha Libre.
European World Of Sport and Catch Wrestling:
This style of wrestling favors more of a technical delivery and mat based grappling. it focuses on hold for hold, counter hold for counter hold type of wrestling. It is also a very snug style that i have seen. It also has a great showcasing of awesome chain wrestling. One in particular that i have enjoyed is the showcase of chain wrestling from The Legend Johnny Saint. Now watching both Paige and A.J., while they are both good wrestlers, Paige's style in the ring i feel can translate better to a market. It focuses on being more mat based than A.J.'s. It can be used to chain moves together, and technical applications are far more shown in what Paige can deliver. So, as far as i am concerned European Scene goes to:
Paige
Canadian Wrestling Scene:
Now even though i am from The United States, i have heard some stuff on The Canadian Scene. I have heard that it can be very rough and rugged up there from our neighbors to the north. I have heard that it can be just as brutal as the old school Tennessee and Texas wrestling scenes. But it also has some bases in That European Scene as well. Well, if i had to make a pick on who would come out on top in a brawling type of environment it would be:
Paige
Latin American Lucha Libre:
This is where it does have some technical wrestling in it, it mainly is about acrobatics and high flying action. Fast paced action causing mind blowing stunts, five star rated aerial moves, colorful characters, and things based on style points. Not going to lie. I think that a true bruiser would make it, but would be very hard to do so. So, i would have to give this one to:
A.J. Lee
Japanese Puroresu:
This is my favorite of the international styles. Hard hitting, mat based attack. Killer shoot submissions. Powerful striking with punishing moves used in the ring. even though it does have some Lucha influence on it, i think that it favors more of the strong stylers obviously. It favors more of the people that enjoy inflicting pain and punishment upon their opponents. It favors more of the wrestler that wants to make this a fight and showcase that Fighting Spirit that Puro wrestling stands for. I think that there is only one person's style that is geared more towards a fighting type of match. A match that will test the will of a wrestler because you will have to fight for your life in the ring when it comes to Puro. I think that the person whose style can work better in a fight situation based on overall and total body of work at this stage of there career is:
Paige
Plus Paige's style resembles more of the greatest Joshi wrestler of all time: Akira Hokuto in my mind at least.
American Ground and Pound:
Now this is going to be the tough one. This is where i had to put the thinking cap on. You see, our style has evolved over the years. Our style shows a real variety of stuff in it. Mat based action, hard hits, innovative moves, showmanship, Broadway style, roughhouse fights, you name it, American has shown it. So to go about this i had to just bottom line it. I had to think that despite our wrestling evolution, what is the base of what we are all about as far as American Wrestling goes. As i thought about it, i could only compare it to the American people in general. Despite our diversity, we all have one thing in common. We are a hard working, nose to the grindstone type of people. We labor all day to provide food for our families, keep expenses in check in order to have sustainable living conditions for you family, and try to instill those values to our children so they can do the same. We are basically blue collar, hard hat wearers that enjoy the simplest things in life. So going on that, i believe that is how the basis of American Wrestling is. Blue collar, nose to the grindstone, hard hat type of style. It is not meant to be pretty. It is meant to get results. It is the type of style that make you come home with dirt under your finger nails. It is rough and rugged, merciless, and vicious. No remorse or sympathy for you. You have to "Man up" in order to survive. Well, between these two, who's style is rough and rugged more? Nose to the grindstone more? Hard hat old school style more? Well to me there is only one.
PAIGE
In my mind, her style is just tailor made to translate better to more markets than A.J.'s because it is very old school and straight laced. No Frills or thrills, appreciates style, but Desires and appreciates SUBSTANCE EVEN MORE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Maybe i am a bit biased because i am from Tennessee, and i am used to watching and liking that gritty and grimey, technical and hard hitting, Southern style wrestling. The style that is OLD SCHOOL TO THE CORE. But i have always said that OLD SCHOOL IS BEST SCHOOL, and Paige's style is straight up OLD SCHOOL.
Who should go over at Summerslam when the match is made official:
I have read all of you debate this topic over and over again. This is a topic that i have found to be very interesting and fun to read. I have read Paige needs to win so her heel turn is validated. Some say A.J. needs to win because of her status. You all say that they both need victories at Summerslam because of the contenders for the title. I am a fun on both ladies, Paige more than A.J., but i can see both sides of this debate. But i am going to take a different course of action of this one. I feel that both the roles of Paige and A.J. have been cemented. I believe that everyone knows that A.J. is the face of the division while Paige is of course the future of the division. Those roles are pretty much set in stone. I believe that they are set in what they are supposed to be. So the question is not whether they need the title to cement themselves on the division, but rather what victory validates the cementation. If the roles are cemented, then whose's needs validation more? Well in my mind, i think that Paige needs her role as the future of the division validated more. And i will tell you why.
From the 80s to i believe the mid 90s, wrestling has always lived by the philosophy that the man had to hold the gold. The top dog always carried the strap. That is a philosophy that should be carried on to this very day. But by the time the mid 90s rolled around, a certain paradigm shift happened in Professional Wrestling. Things started to change that began the practice of going against tradition and tried and true Pro Wrestling convention. I really can not pin down exactly what caused it. Maybe The Monday Night Wars, Rise Of ECW, combination of the two, or something else. But something changed how the business went about things, and one of the things that changed was the doctrine of who the man was. Older convention stated that the champ was the man, but after the change, it became who could be the face of the company being the man. Maybe seeing Hulk Hogan come into WCW being treated as the man straight out of the gate without being the champion showed an example of the shift in wrestling. Maybe it was The NWO that showcased the shift in focus being of the person or group instead of the championship. Maybe the popularity of Rob Van Dam in the original ECW also played its role in the shift. Whatever it was, the shift changed the focus of the wrestling business, and the title was no longer the main focus.
Now, do not get me wrong. The Title of World Champion is still hallowed, respected, and highly important. But now the focus is more on the wrestler as Main Eventer rather than World Champion. I know it sounds convoluted and funny, but now you can have the face of the company AND the champion of the company being two different people. With that being said, A.J. DOES NOT NEED TO BE THE CHAMPION TO BE THE FACE OF THE DIVISION. You can have two pillars of the division holding it up until some more people can step up and bring it. You can have one pillar as the face of the division while the other is being its champion. So that is my take on everything. Paige needs this more than A.J. because A.J. will always be the face of the division whether she holds the gold or not. Will tackle the other two another day. Good night.